What next? Going to school with no shoes?

[gregorach]

Well I am sorry, I didn't mean any of those things you infered I had meant, I was simply commenting on the fact that you can sometimes take opinions and state they are generalisations, which by there very nature they are. The rest I will delete if you prefer.

No, please leave your original comments as they are. The statements have already been made, and altering the record now won't change that. I would much rather that the conversation remain as it actually was, so that people can make up their own minds as to the rights and wrongs of it.

[boboff]

Me too, that's why I asked!

See we finally agree!

[Mustardseedmama]

I surely don't want to stir anything up, but I suppose I should post the other half of my two cents...

I live in a tiny community now, 900 plus or minus a few, and it's one of the "poorest" communities in our state. Many of my neighbors are hard-working folks, who pay their taxes, take care of their families, and when the need arises, look after their neighbors. Then there are other neighbors, MANY of them, who don't work, and they dont want to. They might lose their "benefits".

I hear them talking about it in line at the grocery store or W-Mart. They work the system to get the most money with the least amount of effort. I know one man who purposely kept one of his sons (he'd had 3 of them from two mothers and he had sole custody of all three) on heavy doses of Ritalin for years, just for the "benefits", because he was too lazy to go out and get a job. The boy was a normal. active boy (read full of energy and creativity!), but this father heard one teacher say A.D.H.D., and he knew he'd be able to get money for it.

I worked for almost 20 years at a large municiple utility company before moving out here. My job was data entry for applicants for new service. This is guessing (sorry I never actually tracked it), but probably 65-70 percent of the people I spoke with on any given day listed as their source of income welfare, social security disability, or unemployment. How can that be? They worked the system. They would put service in, run up a huge bill, get disconnected, then call in and put service in one of their childrens name. It went on and on.

There are some studies (I'm sorry but I am not computer-savvy enough to do links) that I have seen that show that less than 50 percent of adults here in the States pay taxes, and taxes are what fund all these programs. We have all kinds of entitlement programs over here; 'You have a problem,...we have a program!' wins the day. My husband ruefully jokes that he's tired of working, therefore he just needs to sit down and figure out what all his problems are and start pushing a pencil around to get "help".

I know there are people who get down on their luck and need help sometimes, but that's not the majority of what I see and hear. I see and hear an entire generation (two now because they are teaching their children) who just don't want to work, and don't want to make do on what they could earn. I do realize that the job market stinks here right now, but this mentality was firmly set way before our economy went so far south.

It's hard to work and scrape for so many years to get by, all the while watching others, who are capable too, take from the "till" and never put anything back. At the rate its going, the whole system will fall apart in a few years anyway...

[demi]

my uncle told me he went to school with no shoes on for a while as they couldnt afford to buy new ones and he had distroyed his old ones.

[Ellendra]

Thank you, Mustardseed. That's been the experience of every single person I know who works with the "disadvantaged" as part of their job. I'd love to believe my observations were somehow the exception, but I have yet to see any evidence contradicting it. As a cashier, there was only one customer I saw who paid using EBT but did NOT fit the stereotype, all the others who used it did. That's one exception out of thousands (I was a cashier for several years).

And yes, according to both the IRS and the census bureau, almost half of US households pay no federal income taxes, and no coincidence, approximately the same number receive government assistance. I challenge anybody to try and paint those numbers as sustainable.

[sarahkeast]

Having lived and worked [Special Ed Teacher] in Texas and now back home in UK, I can see both sides of the pond on this one.

It is a more extreme 'entitlement' and lazy culture in US, but following fast here. When telling one of my student's parents that their daughter was technically learning disabled their first reaction wasnt concern for the child, but 'what benefits can we claim ?' They asked me [clearly very English] that very question, like I would know !

There will always be extremes of slackers/scroungers etc and hard working folks struggling to live an honest and respectful life, but I do think overall the 'Entitlement Culture' is growing massively.

One of my good friends at school was complaining that her debts arent considered when calculating her Tax Credit entitlements. I just left the room, didnt even try and point out how ludicrous it was that she should get more benefits because she has spent beyond her means and other people havent. She was serious and getting support from others....

But I also remember my mum when we were kids complaining that people on the council estate [social housing] were buying colour TVs when we couldnt afford it.

These days I just keep my head down, work hard, spend wisely [read infrequently] and pick my friends carefully.

[Mustardseedmama]

These days I just keep my head down, work hard, spend wisely [read infrequently] and pick my friends carefully.

Wise counsel to keep, JMHO.

[oldjerry]

[quote="sarahkeast"]

One of my good friends at school was complaining that her debts arent considered when calculating her Tax Credit entitlements.


But surely the point is,they aren't.If you think it's easy living on £70 a week,then go for it.I've never signed on,cos I want nothing from your State,so I'll take nothing from it,and give as little as possible to it,but a few I know ,who sign on,would give their eye teeth for a decent job,and resent being treated like lepers,and being constantly hassled by some inadequate whom by some weird chance of fate,is not unemployed themself,but has a 'job' at Job Centre Plus.

Sure, there are lazy good for nothing ,wastes of space, signing on,and there are just as many IN work taking the piss out of their employers and the people they work with.

imply,there are 2and a half million unemployed in the UK.If you think they are all workshy scroungers,then you're wasting your time reading this,so stop now.I don't know if this recession began over the pond or in the City,but here in Shropshire,it aint down to us......

[sarahkeast]

Huh, sorry OldJerry, I am not sure what you are implying or if you are referencing what I said.

What I was meaning was how strange that someone thinks they are 'entitled' to have their bad spending habits bailed out by tax payers.

We are all low paid Teaching Assistants, you could barely survive on just what we earn, a working spouse or Tax Credits etc are essential for a modest existence. My financial choices allow me to pay down a mortgage and have no debt, not had new clothes for years, kids dont have many, and they know to put on jumper before heating etc. If I went out and brought all the shiny toys I wanted I would be way in debt. I manage just fine without. I dont feel good about living partly on benefits, but couldnt do it any other way. I worry how I will manage when my kids leave and with it maintenance etc, but I will figure something out. I love my job, altho I have to do some unbelievable stuff that no one should ever have to do, I wouldnt quit, the kids and the team make it worth it. If the state helps me to do that, great, and thank you. No way could I do £70 a week, my life isnt set up for that, but I 'could' if it were different [no kids for a start]

Some people will scrounge, cant say I dont blame them, if the system allows it and they have no morals, why not ! Society is made up of all types and needs people at the extremes [Sociology 101 coming out of cobwebs here] inorder to function effectively. Keeps life and lunch breaks interesting, and I am learing to keep quiet in certain settings, cos I know I am also one of the outliers of the community, That is fine, I am happy where I am. Hope you all are too.

[gregorach]

What I was meaning was how strange that someone thinks they are 'entitled' to have their bad spending habits bailed out by tax payers.

Yeah. Who do they think they are - banks?

[boboff]

Oh I wasn't going to bother with this, but Dunc and Jerry are right also.

It's very hard to know what the answers are, there are contradictions all over the place.

Do we have any chance of changing it by acquiessing?

I can only say from my own perspective I suppose. The recent changes in Working Tax credits mean that the maximum allowable income to recieve any family tax credits is now £32k a year, down from £50k a year, that has meant that we, and millions of others now don't get any. If this could ever be argued as being unfair, I would not support that view. Welfare should be there as a last resort, the Labour party tried to pay the voters by making everyone with a familiy pretty much take benefits. This isn't right, when I was entitled I took it mind. HYPOCRITE! Yeah I know.

BUT, the other thing Jerry doesn't mention is that the person getting £70 a week also gets housing benefit at £100 a week, council Tax benefit at £25 per week, free health care, glasses, dentist, so really it's more like £220 a week after "tax" so £15,000 a year effectively as a salary. No it isn't fun to live on £70 a week, and not EVERYBODY, gets this as it depends on personal circumstances, BUT the vast majority do get it, and if you ask me it's very generous, and appears always to be sufficient for those people to drink and smoke, have a contract phone, sky HD and a 52" TV.

But as Dunc says is it any different to bailing out the banks, the same Banks that created lots of rich people out of the housing bubble.

No it's not, both are wrong really.

I though can see that we don't have a choice on either, and there are other benefits to the "system" If the Banks sort them selves out, the country will get the money back, the money paid to people on benefits gets spent in shops and Pubs and is used in a large proportion on goods which are heavily taxed, so in a way if they stopped spending so much on benefits, the economy would shrink, they would get less tax, and therefore not actually be that much better off as a country anyway.

I have found it really interesting though that this is a problem in the US, I had never appreciated that before.

[chickenchargrill]

See, the most profitable way to play the system, and the most encouraged as it's legal even if it is unethical, is to work. Not to sit at home. The job centre give you better off calculations that do include all your outcomes and will encourage you to not take a job if they think it will leave you worse off.

A day or two at work, plus self-employed stuff to take you up to 24(?) hours so you have the minimum to claim working tax. Self-employed at home means you can claim back some gas and electricity, work related outcome and part of your council tax, *if* you're earning enough to pay any tax or to have to pay council tax. You're also entitled to claim housing and council tax benefit.

That'd give you £146 min wage, £100 housing benefit, £25 council tax, and for us about £200 a week child tax credits. So about £25k per year after tax.

[oldjerry]

Well yes.Bear in mind,the £70 figure relates to a single person over 21(and the max figure for single persons housing benefit is more like £80 round here,and that's still more than their dole money,so what would you have them do?sleep rough?they'll never get a job then).

The self-employed thing seems OK ,but even in this 'giveaway to scroungers' society you do need a few kids before they'll pay out ANY child tax credits.I dont know how they get the £100 housing benefit(and that's constantly under review).


Anyhow,if your mortgage of £80g costs you 5-6 hundred a month,you're trying to run a motor,pay utility bills,and feed and clothe 3 kids, £25 K doesn't seem a hell of a lot really.

I don't really disagree with much of what everyone's saying,there are some feckless sods both in and out of work,I think the 'they're all living it up,big tellys,holidays in Spain blah blah,maybe a harpback to the days when it was common for people to work and sign,the recession has seen most of that off,there is no casual work round here,end off.When people feel the pinch,and let's face it,most of us are,it's human nature I suppose to look around for scapegoats.It's easy to see when your nextdoor neighbour is getting more or doing less,but those that are doing REALLY well tend to live well back from the main road.

[boboff]

Although Farmers are all moaning the lack of people to help, on TV this morning a farm in Cornwall was doing just that, saying NO ONE IN UK wanted casual work as didn't BENEFIT them.

Come back to Cornwall Jerry and you'll be fine!

[oldjerry]

Too knackered to pick daffs these days!But you raise aninteresting point,I'm still in touch witha guy who grows acres of cabbage,and the nflux of cheap EU labour was only a temporary benefit.Most Poles have gone at the bottom end of the job market as their economy is better then ours,but the ganging industry is geared up especially for foreign labour.

The prob for the unemployed is that by declaring the week or two's work they will then have to resign,with the inevitable delays,lost cheques,screw-ups etc,which are a pain in the arse for anyone but can be serious stuff for anyone living from week to week.That's why when I did do a lot of casual work,nearly all of us were actually self-employed,as it saved a lot of hassle.(still got interrogated by the DHSS flyng squad on a regular basis,usually spent 10 mins or so speaking to them in Manuel Speak as a bit of a wind up,not fair really,but a wet field at 7am can be short on laughs.)