The Education System

[chickenchargrill]

Nothing to do with money/class/whatever you want to call it, but simply how involved the parents are, what aspiration they give to their kids.

Totally agree with this. But I find that those of us who do get involved and feel some responsibility towards their child's education are the ones who feel the education system sucks.

My 7-year-old daughter should not be able to find 6 errors in a school letter. The students in their late teens that my OH taught should have been able to times by ten.

The students he taught had been let down a long time ago and nobody had bothered trying to explain it all from the start. Their parents expecting the school to do it. Juniors expecting Infants to have done it. Secondary expecting Juniors to have done it. These kids were instead labelled thick and troublemakers, when all they needed was someone to take the time to show them how to do the basics, unfortunately I don't think the parents would have been able to. There are far too many ready to blame someone else.

[julie_lanteri]

as far as how knowledgeable teachers really are, there's a wide range there as well unfortunately. Saying all new teachers know their stuff simply because they have a degree would be untrue and I'm sure we all agree on that. What annoys me the most is the inability of some to say "you know what, that's a great question and you've caught me out! Let's check it together right now (and show the kids how to research for themselves)" or "I'll research it and let you know (and DO IT)". Most amusing personal experience, y8 French:
S1: how do you say gerbil?
T: une gerbille
S2: really? we were told it was cochon d'inde... (confused face)
T: un cochon d'inde is a guinea pig
S2: yes, I know, Mrs So-and-so told us that in France they call them the same.
T: (can I say she's an idiot? no, not really...) well, maybe in the area she went to they didn't have many gerbils... (move on quick!!!)

and I do believe we've lowered the bar A LOT. No, the bar has been lowered a lot, we didn't have a say! The top end though is always high, which is a good thing but for the rest, hello dumbing down!

Clanpowell, "How the hell have they got to 12 without basic skills". I ask myself that regularly! In France, we used to retake years if we didn't get 50% overall (not much of a problem as it was an average of all the subjects). Good in 2 cases:
1 you found it hard/needed more time: you're given the chance to go over it again.
2 you messed about all year and didn't achieve: tough, they are consequences, it's not like you didn't know!
Unfortunately parents started to complain, appeal and now it's a lot rarer. And to all those who think it's a trauma and put down: have you ever had a chat with a year 9 boy in bottom set for all his subjects and need a TA to read the work because he can't? yeah, he surely feels super good about himself...
There must be a way to get the benefit of moving levels at the child's pace and avoiding a feeling of short-term failure (as opposed to long-term failure as we've got now!).
Is it in the US that they are not in year groups but subject level groups or something like that? Like you could be level 4 maths, level 2 english, etc and only move up when you're ready to do so. Probably not easy to organise but at least you'd know where you stand!

ps: I'm loving this, can we do that regularly? :p

[Lilyfae]

This isn't a judgement of anyone's ability to teach, more a rant about fashionable lingo.

I do not want my kids to go to school and have people there who enable her to learn. I want teachers. I want people who are knowledgeable about their subject who can *teach* my children

There are so many ways to learn, and no one way is right for everyone. But you are teaching them, even if you are teaching them how to find out things for themselves, how the easiest way to do x is... you are teaching, not just enabling learning.

What is the point of sending children to school if they are just going there to find things out for themselves?

Thanks

Teaching students how to work things out for themselves rather than depend on a pc/book/teacher is what will give them the skills to make informed decisions when they are older and is currently the skill that industry most craves which is why they are recruiting hotshots from abroad rather than kids who cam recite stuff their teacher taught them.

Now I'm extremely knowledgeable about history & research other viewpoints or other angles of my topics to show history repeats itself such as showing how bread was a major causal factor in two revolutions the French & the Russian so my students know how governments fail if they don't meet the basic needs of the people. This is more important than being able to recite the order of monarchs from the eggs to liz & how who invented the seed drill.
Those who call for chalk & talk & recall over thinking just smack of Thatcherite grammar school rubbish- middle class kids who can recall a lot but know very little.

I resent being called trendy & unknowledgeable just because my psychological understanding through years & thousands of pounds of training says any different from the typical 'chalk & talk' 'teach, don't think' brigade.

I know what I'm talking about when I refer to learning over teaching because it works, I've seen it transform sullen disengaged boys & get autistic children to give their opinion out loud in class- that I'd call success in teaching, not lines of silent kids filling out worksheets dying for the playground.

[Green Aura]

Oooooohhhhh, I was going to keep out of this one but

If a child can't spell cat that is the parents fault not the school.

How on earth do you work that one out?

Teachers are employed specifically for the purpose of teaching, aren't they? And that, in primary school, must surely start with learning to read and write. I agree that many of today's parents, who came through the awful educational system of the eighties and nineties, probably can't help their kids much academically. But that doesn't necessarily make it their fault. As many of the teachers came through the same system too, maybe that explains some of the problems.

I actually think the education system started going downhill in the sixties. Being ten years younger than my brothers I experienced a vastly different (i.e. lower) standard of curriculum than they did. It wasn't long after that they stopped teaching children to spell, or do basic arithmetic.

I think there are some things that need to be learned by rote e.g. multiplication tables (although as 10 year olds and younger have mobile phones with calculators maybe that's redundant). Once the children have the basic skills then they can get on to the mind-opening, exciting stuff. I fear teaching children that school is end to end play time (even if they are learning things along the way) does not prepare them for the real world where work will be 9-5 grind for most. It doesn't have to be boot camp either. I had a few fantastic teachers who made learning a joy, despite their having to stick very rigidly to the curriculum. And I'm certain those types still exist, they were always a rarity.

Having said that, and despite the fact that I agree with Mike about the disparity of high A Level results and universities having to spend the first year teaching very basic stuff, I think the education is (or rather was, before this shower got in) starting to improve. Although I have to base that on stuff I read, not having children of school age. It's going to be a hell of a long job though - there are forty years of declining standards to overcome.

But for a child to go all the way through primary school without someone noticing they can't spell cat is a serious indictment of their teachers' skills.

[MKG]

Now, you see, the discussion becomes more difficult. I've had responses from ... what? ... three teachers, I think, and a school governor. And, although I don't necessarily agree with everything said, a lot of it sounds good to me.

Clanpowell, I've had no direct bad experience with a local school. OH, however, now a happily retired teacher, was sent virtually doolally by the local school where she worked as a very experienced teacher. I have, however, had heated discussions at several schools around the country. I just react angrily when people feed me bullcrap. Oh - and I totally agree about punishment, except to say that teachers must always have something in their arsenal. Nowadays, kids laugh at them with little fear of reprisals.

So, anyway, I'm now sitting thinking "These people are reasonable. From what they say, I wouldn't have too many problems with that kind of educational system". The problem being, of course, that my experience tells me that this is not the normal state of affairs. I have not, of course, seen every school in the country - but I've seen a fair few.

Julie, you say that the bar has definitely been lowered - and I agree - and you say that teachers weren't asked for their opinions before this happened. Teachers ... maybe not. But educationalists certainly were. It was the government, ultimately, who lowered the bar (and I, being completely cynical, see that as a tacit admission that standards were falling anyway). But governments are reactionary beasts - they don't have a single original idea in their collective head. To what were they reacting? Why were standards falling in the first place?

Boboff - sorry if I've offended you. But it's something about which I have strong feelings.

I do remember, a few years ago, going to see a junior sports day. And I remember seeing the faces of kids who'd just bust their guts trying to win - and doing so - and being presented with a badge (as was every other competitor) saying "I took part in a race". I think that's maybe the first time I got really angry about progressive educational ideas.

[MKG]

"Thatcherite grammar school rubbish- middle class kids who can recall a lot but know very little."

Sorry, but I think this might be part of the problem I'm talking about.

Mike

[chickenchargrill]

Now I'm extremely knowledgeable about history & research other viewpoints or other angles of my topics to show history repeats itself such as showing how bread was a major causal factor in two revolutions the French & the Russian so my students know how governments fail if they don't meet the basic needs of the people. This is more important than being able to recite the order of monarchs from the eggs to liz & how who invented the seed drill.

THAT is teaching. Nice to hear someone teaching children about the subject and how to learn.

[Lilyfae]

"Thatcherite grammar school rubbish- middle class kids who can recall a lot but know very little."

Sorry, but I think this might be part of the problem I'm talking about.

Mike

Yep & that's what good teachers are fighting against- sad thing is Michael Gove is of that recitative old stock & wants to reverse curriculum 08 which allowed for steps away from that ( still not perfect but better than what the gov wants) & moves towards real education

& chickenchargrill, thank-you

[julie_lanteri]

"But for a child to go all the way through primary school without someone noticing they can't spell cat is a serious indictment of their teachers' skills." Green Aura, everyone in school probably know he can't spell cat, they've even had meetings with parents etc. Unfortunately, it's repetition/reinforcement that's going to help that child, which is why parents are asked to get involved (reading books taken home, spelling tests, homework etc). Problem: you can't force parents to actually do their part! The parents who care often ask why their children have so little homework. Answer: because the parents who don't care have complained about too much hw, and the teacher was asked by the high power above to reduce the amount given as it was WAY too much.

[MKG]

Not quite what I meant, Lilyfae. I am a product of that same grammar school system - although I was there a long time before Maggie's name was newsworthy. It wasn't a bed of roses. But I came out recalling a lot, knowing a lot, understanding a lot, having a solid background in areas I would otherwise never have seen - oh, and having been taught debating skills to boot - and with the qualifications to go on to a successful higher education period and several interesting careers which earned me a fair amount of money. Nearly forgot - my father, far from being middle class, was a miner.

Impractical and reactionary, I know, but ...

Mike

[Green Aura]

Green Aura, everyone in school probably know he can't spell cat, they've even had meetings with parents etc. Unfortunately, it's repetition/reinforcement that's going to help that child, which is why parents are asked to get involved (reading books taken home, spelling tests, homework etc).

Which takes me back to my original point that these parents, having been through a failing education system, may well not have the skills or confidence to perform these tasks. Maybe the TAs are in the wrong place, instead of reading to illiterate teenagers they should be doing repetitive/reinforcing work with primary school children.

[oldjerry]

If they got to 12 without basic skills,then their primary school could well have been our local establishment.Without doubt,the teachers who react to Mike's ,in my opinion,quite moderate ,appraisal of contemporary education clearly fall into his category of the caring ,intelligent minority whom we would all wish to teach our children.Lets face it,for every super qualified,super motived individual in the teaching proffession there are 5 that didn't get the degree their parents were hoping they'd get,and couldn't do anything else.

[MKG]

"... it's repetition/reinforcement that's going to help that child ..."

Sounds just like rote learning to me. And there I was beginning to think that was a crime

Mike

EDIT: To paraphrase GA ... "Quite moderate? Moi?"

And I thought, while it's quiet, to give an example of a great teacher. Harry Happs was his name, although the Harry bit may have been invented by us. He was a tiny man, but completely begowned in that elitist grammar school way of doing things, and he used talk and chalk with the best of them - but with VAT added. Anyway, he was explaining the formation of a coral reef to us. He did it on the floor. He knew his stuff alright but, as I said, he was a tiny man. So he grabbed a chair and stood on it and did it again. Then he stepped off the chair onto his desk and repeated the act. Then, still on the desk, he grabbed the same chair, put it on the desk, climbed on top of it and did the Royal Variety Performance.

It's a thing that I (and probably everyone else who witnessed it which, over the years, must amount to a lot of people) have never forgotten - and so I also have never forgotten how a coral reef is built. Brilliant man, even though he also threw that bit of chalk at my head quite a few times. And, I think, his methods are completely beyond criticism. But that was in 1963 when I was 12.

[niknik]

a very emotive subject for all...........

I´m NOT a teacher, as such............ but I do teach. English to Spaniards and Spanish to Brits........

MUCH, MUCH MUCH easier trying to teach English to Spaniards.. somewhat difficult, with BRits, some higly educated, had high powered jobs, etc etc. when you have to start with .... a verb, is the "doing" word,... and absolute basics of grammar as they were never taught any!

Many Spaniards believe their education system has really gone dowhhill of late,....BUt one certainty, is that very few will leave as illiterates, unlike the shocking figures in the UK.

If the standard isnt reached..........they repeat the year......... well alternate years, years 2/4 /6 of primary, and I think now every year of secondary can be repeated if too many subjects are failed ( have to pass maths and spanish)

I did some years ago consider retraining as a teacher ( interest , not money) when there was a big push, BUT my interest would have been juniors. my skills, ( and therefore grant potentials) for high school levels, so decided against it, and moved abroad instead!

Some kids, however bright, just are not academic, and life skills, or technical training, or concentrating on their fortes ( especially in the current economic climate) would be far more useful than geography, or history.or whatever, basic language and maths ( adding subtracting etc not calculus, and algebra)should however be pushed , and my biggest bugbear,spelling!
what will a child learn, when the teacher´s corrections are misspelt! ( apologies for any mistakes here, but although I CAN spell, I can´t type )

Basically I believe the education system ( everywhere) needs a dramatic revamp, and the dumbing down of qualifications needs to stop.

[oldjerry]

What motivation is there for kids to sit learning stuff for years on end when a couple of clicks will(in theory) inform them,entertain them,and supply them with goods, services, partners etc?
Couple that with the knowledge that the quickest way to make a great deal of money is to aquire celebrity by breast enlargement,sleeping with someone who's already a celebrity and then telling the press,or at least doing something that people find interesting for a day or so( maybe using a three syllable word on the Jeremy Kyle Show?)and why would they bother learning anything beyond basic literacy?