Selfsufficientish.com

Annpan wrote:You cold even live in a yurt if you want too.

Now you are talking!! That would be fab. One day!!!!

I take your points on board Ann.

You hit the nail on the head when you say these choices are not mainstream and that is the point. It would not be sustainable for the UK population to live like you suggest.

A lot of people do not have a choice. They can't choose to harvest their rainwater or fit expensive solar panels or wind turbines when they live on the 14th floor of a tower block. Many people don't give a t0ss about about Co2 emmissions, climate change, the destruction of the rainforest etc. To get the massive changes we want we need to use the corporates to get to these people.

Your decision to buy a wooden toothbrush is admiral but why should you have to find a green store to do it?

Imagine if all the big supermarkets decided to stop supplying any plastic toothbrushes and only sold wooden ones? Imagine if they all decided to only sell organic veg? Imagine if new building regulations stipulated that all new houses must have super insulation, built in solar, PV and rainwater harvesting? Imagine if the energy companies invested heavily in renewables and started selling only green electricity? That is far more efficient than everyone sticking up a wind turbine

Surely it is better that we change the way the big corporates supply us rather than create thousands of small niche players that the majority of the population who don't care about green issues at all won't use.

Large corporates create economies of scale which help to reduce prices which is important.

I think this is the biggest problem in the whole issue - they've driven down prices so everyone expects to be able to get everything at a rock bottom price. This brings me back to my original post of their pricing smaller enterprises out of business, enforcing huge unsustainable monoculture practices on growers, exploiting developing nations, shoddy, disposable goods etc etc.

I'm not saying those of us on lower incomes shouldn't have good food or homes but under the current regime everybody can't have everything they want at artificially low prices without seriously exploiting someone, somewhere. And at the end of the day, the rich don't shop there - they can afford much better products than T*sc* and their like sell.

TheGoodEarth wrote: Your decision to buy a wooden toothbrush is admiral but why should you have to find a green store to do it?

But why should I HAVE to go to boots to buy a toothbrush? only... I wouldn't make a special trip to Boots, I would just pick one up the next time I am in T***o... then boots goes out of business, because everyone just buys there toothbrushes from T***o... and of course the green store has long since gone, since you can get organic grain, fairtrade shopping bags and of course our wooden toothbrushes in T***o now....

T***o can afford to put their prices up because they have no-one to compete with.... and now look at the society we have, a giant T***o looming over each village and those of us who don't work somewhere on the T***o supply chain are unemployed, and we all shop at T***o because we have such a great choice there.


I get your point that the masses don't care or don't know there are choices, but I do. I have to do what I think is within my capabilities. I can't make choices for those people who live in the 14th floor of a high rise... but nor do I wish (for them or me) to live in a world where there really is no alternative.

Smaller shops employ more people per square ft than tescos do, smaller shops run alongside there suppliers more than tescos do. There is a place for supermarkets but if we all stop using our independent retailers they won't be there next week, and we won't have the choice.





I don't have a wooden toothbrush BTW, but it serves as a good analogy... and any feel free to substitute the word T***o with any major supermarket.

I get your point that the masses don't care or don't know there are choices, but I do. I have to do what I think is within my capabilities. I can't make choices for those people who live in the 14th floor of a high rise... but nor do I wish (for them or me) to live in a world where there really is no alternative.

We have friends that live in a high rise. I asked them what they recycled. Unfortunately not a lot. They asked the management committee about it. The committee had looked into it. Unfortunately the local council doesn't recognize vertical streets and so they will not collect recycling. Not even from an area at ground level.

They could take their recycling to skips, but unfortunately it is a car ride away - they don't have a car! They use public transport. There is a bottle bank just down the road so that's what they recycle!

I don't normally click on ads, but now I know that by doing so they help to pay for this fantastic site I shall click at least one a day! I just thought they paid for the space.

MW

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TheGoodEarth wrote:
Imagine if new building regulations stipulated that all new houses must have super insulation, built in solar, PV and rainwater harvesting? .

Actually from 2016 all new builds have to be zero carbon buildings !

Edited for clarity.

That is correct Big Al. But that doesn't mean they will generate their own electricity, DHW and water. Exactly how the homes of 2016 will achieve carbon neutral is still up for debate. It is likely to be something along the lines of - 'if your burn fossil fuel then you must plant 10 trees in Essex' Hardly a sustainable home!

The current Code For Sustainable Homes level 6 is the most sustainable type of home you can get and there are only a handful in the UK. It is highly unlikely that all homes will be zero carbon by 2016, there will have to be some serious jiggery pokery by Government to make the masses believe that!

TheGoodEarth wrote:That is correct Big Al. But that doesn't mean they will generate their own electricity, DHW and water. Exactly how the homes of 2016 will achieve carbon neutral is still up for debate. It is likely to be something along the lines of - 'if your burn fossil fuel then you must plant 10 trees in Essex' Hardly a sustainable home!

The current Code For Sustainable Homes level 6 is the most sustainable type of home you can get and there are only a handful in the UK. It is highly unlikely that all homes will be zero carbon by 2016, there will have to be some serious jiggery pokery by Government to make the masses believe that!

By 2016 there will be hardly any fossil fuel left to burn so that's no argument. Current level 6 houses are few and far between because they are mainly trial homes like this one below.

http://www.solarcentury.com/Press/Press ... vel-6-home

but it is much more than your rather flippant statement about trees in Essex but there again so long as the polluting juggernauts can get your toothbrushes to Te$%^& then you will be all right so that's fine.

Much that you want to know about T£$co is summed up in Tescopoly - top book by the guy from NEF. Much about many of the supermarkets was summed up a few years ago in another good book - Shopped.

Its up to all of us to do a bit - great news to hear that folks are recyling from vertical streets - used to really frustrate me when living in a tenement that we didnt just have recycling wheelies instead of lots of normal but then - I didn't get off my ar$e either and do enough about it - we all do what we can. buying local (ie uk) from t£$cos must surely be better than buying stuff with mega food miles. buying local organic from small local shop is of course even better but horses for courses and as folks said when i joined this site recently - little steps......
they all add up

fruitcake wrote:they all add up

every little helps!

Very thought provoking thankyou all. I do still shop at a supermarket for 'big stuff' toilet rolls, detergents (rarely) and chillis, ginger and stuff that a local rural town like mine does not provide for the mainly elderly population. I do make a point of avoidgin supermarkets if I can, but then again we are in the city everyday and can pop in to a supermakret on the weay home, does that then become more efficient in terms of fuel thaan making a trip to town?

Now that I know about the ads, I'll click on some

fruitcake wrote: Its up to all of us to do a bit - great news to hear that folks are recyling from vertical streets - used to really frustrate me when living in a tenement that we didnt just have recycling wheelies instead of lots of normal but then - I didn't get off my ar$e either and do enough about it ....

And that is the problem, the attitude that choices have to be easy is endemic (and I'm certainly not flaming you for what you said). I live without vehicle access, I choose to live this way, but part of that choice is having to carry all waste I produce (whether recyclable or not), 1km (2/3 mile) to the nearest bins.

At the end of The History of Oil, Rob Newman talks about when he first got involved in green activism, going to meetings and suggesting what people ought to do, things they ought to organise etc. After a while he realised what that looked he was always met with meant....."yes that is what YOU ought to do", "yes that is something YOU could organise", "YOU do it and I'll join you". Of course being satirical he then says "thats when I stopped opening my mouth, lest someone expect me to do something"

Be the change.

I'm 63 and supermarkets have been a fact of life since I can remember - at least since I was 8. The shop names have changed (well except for the Co-op - remember Finefare anyone?) but the supermarket has been there. Times have changed and the smaller stores have disappeared for reasons various - not always from lack of support but more often through lack of owners willing to do the hours (it isn't all done in opening hours believe me).

A smaller corner shop or individual grocer in competition with a supermarket may well find it cheaper to buy stock from the local T***o, Asda or wherever than from the wholesaler due to not having the purchasing requirement.

Can you shop without the supermarket? Depends on whether you have the time to cook most of your own and whether you can obtain your ingredients via wholefood co-operative, farm shop, market, grow your own, online from other than a supermarket and whether you can afford to buy at the prices on offer from these outlets.

As a 95% vegan pensioner on only a state pension in a reasonably rural area I would be seriously pushed financially to be able to afford to avoid supermarkets. Not that any of them make a great profit out of me.

Ish runs at a loss sometimes and a profit at others. It is not run for any other reason that to be a nice place on the net where people can meet and share information or friendly banter. We run free charity ads at the bottom right and some ads we even run for free as favours to friends and nice folk.

I would like to be able to afford to pay the mods for their time but even if I could none of them will accept any money, they are all pretty good like that and you should thank them all for helping to keep this forum functioning whenever you can.

Charity - I have donated to these folk in the past.

Right and the whole point of this thread.......

The banning of the word T***o really started off as a bit of a tounge in cheek joke, although it is true that I will only shop there if I have no other choice. Such as when I cycled to Scotland and in 2 places there was literally no other choice and really that is the reason I don't shop there or indeed any other supermarket. (well I bought some beer from Mori**ons on a stag do last month). I agree with Red here and will say it is less about not shopping at supermarkets for me and more about supporting local shops.

If you consider that a pet shop on the high street in my local area of Bristol used to take £1500 every Saturday in the 1960's before the out of town shops and supermarkets came along. Considering that this would be the equivalent of between £26000-£50000 in today's money then you can see just how much money is being taken away from the local economy and put in to the pockets of shareholders.

The argument that supermarket supply jobs in a local area is not a great one either, they are low paid jobs in general and imagine how many jobs there are if you have a greengrocer, butchers, hardware store etc, etc.....

Andy Hamilton wrote: The argument that supermarket supply jobs in a local area is not a great one either, they are low paid jobs in general and imagine how many jobs there are if you have a greengrocer, butchers, hardware store etc, etc.....

Absolutely, more skilled, varied and knowledgeable jobs that might actually give someone a sense of fulfillment at the end of the day!