Any legal eagles on here for a general opinion?

[Graye]

OH bought our little cottage in 1994. The person who he bought it from had bought the house in 1972 as a holiday let and then had various "improvements" (including some rather nasty 1970s style softwood doubleglazing) carried out immediately as he then started renting it out.

The house was then Grade 11 listed in 1973.

A couple of years ago, and with the window frames rotten, leaking and beyond any possible repair, we decided to pay extra to have hardwood double glazed windows installed in a Georgian style to match our the general style of our neighbours single glazed windows and in keeping with the age of the building. I phoned the council to enquire about any grants available (none) and what permissions we needed. I was told none were necessary, which it now seems was in fact totally wrong.

Now we are selling the house there seem to be problems and we have been told we should have sought formal permission despite what I was told and despite the fact that we have fitted windows far more in keeping than the originals and although those originals at the point the house was listed were double glazed too.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to resolve this quickly please? As the originals were fitted in 1972 and the property was listed AFTER that date I'm not sure what we are likely to be asked to do here so any thoughts would be welcome!

[Thomzo]

From what I remember, theoretically, the house should stay as it was when it was listed but there are exemptions where you are replacing a modern alteration for something more suited to the age of the house.

I'd recommend calling your local conservation officer (do they still deal with listed buildings?), telling them what happened and the advice that you were given. They'll probably tell you to apply for retrospective consent. It's a hassle and will take ages but you may be ok. We replaced a hideous wooden door with chicken-wire glass for something much more in keeping with the building and it was fine.

Alternatively, speak to your solicitor. I know that you can buy insurance policies nowadays that pay out if the previous owners of your house have done something they shouldn't. Maybe the buyers could do this and you'd reimburse them for the cost of the premium?

Zoe

[pumpy]

Hi Graye, who is telling you that you should have "formal permission" for the improvements? If you spoke to the council at the time, then, surely a verbal affirmation is legally binding? Don't know too much about the listing thing, but i would have thought that if you have improved the property within keeping of it's character, then there should'nt be a problem.

[Graye]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I believe our solicitor originally suggested an indemnity policy but the buyers solicitor has now replied that there is "no idemnity with regard to listed buildings" and we should therefore approach the local authority, I imagine with a view to looking at retrospective permissions. I'm a bit disillusioned with each set of solicitors at the moment so I'm not sure who is right.

I'm afraid I didn't think to get in writing the comment that no permissions were needed when I spoke to the council, which it now seems would have been a good idea. The main problem is that the sale has all been organised and almost got to contract exchanging point so anything which wil take a long time will cause a problem.

[MKG]

I've suffered from this one. It's the point of listing which defines the state of preservation (which, in my case, was ridiculous - as it is in yours). And yes, the statement from the council would be taken into account IF you could prove they said it. Having said all of that, most councils realise that Grade 2 listing can be a bit daft at times. So talk to them - I'll bet that, between you, you can come up with something agreeable to all parties.

Mike

[grahamhobbs]

The law is clear, the building is 'Listed' as it was at the time of listing. Not sure why the purchaser is querying this, but you can apply for retrospective permission which theoretically should be straightforward. However what happens if it wasn't recorded that the windows were modern double glazed at the time and the council now think your Georgian ones are not actually in keeping.
Just had a similar battle regarding windows in a windmill, where the council said that we had to fit 16 pane cast iron windows, that the windmill had for a period in the middle of it's history but weren't there when it was listed, it had modern timber ones. We wanted to install windows of a type that it most likely had when originally built and indicated on an early painting.
The council was adamant about the cast iron windows and it took a year and a letter from a QC to get them to relent.

[Graye]

Thanks Mike, I hope so! Unfortunately I don't think I can prove they told me that at the council, I made no notes and can't remember any names either. I don't suppose they will have recorded it anywhere (or would be prepared to look for it if they give me wrong info!)

[boboff]

None of this helps graye though.

I think your solicitor has done well, I would recommend that you speak to the Solicitor, if you can the purchasers, and explain to them the situation, say you are happy to write a letter, swear an Afa David or however you spell it Julie, recounting your conversations. You will NOT get an answer from the council in time, so you have to tell these people that they either take your word for it, or unfortunately the deal will be gone.

The council will not do anything to help you, you will get stressed trying, and it really is not worth the stress. Solicitors and coouncils have their own agenda, if the purchasers are realistic they should take this on.

Fingers crossed.

[Green Aura]

Can you not get retrospective planning permission (or whatever type is needed)? We had to do that on the garage that had been built by our predecessors at our old house.

Strangely, looking through the pile of deeds (as we're just in the throws of selling it), we came across the original planning consent that had been there all the time! Solicitors, grrrrrrr

[bonniethomas06]

Hi,

I just called the firm we use for legal indemnities at work - Countrywide Legal Indemnities, who have confirmed that they DO offer policies for listed buildings. They can be expensive (offer to split the cost only!) but if the windows were an 'improvement' - i.e, in keeping with the rest of the building/neighbours) then they are very likely to offer cover and it would probably be competitive.
Policies can be arranged in 24 hrs so no delay. What is their solicitor thinking?!?

Lets face it, the liklihood of the buyer being forced to remove the windows by the planning department at some point in the future is very slim, it is just a 'risk' which is why their solicitor has brought it up - to cover their own backs, and to justify their fees! If I was advising a friend in the same position (not at work) then I would say buy the house and take the risk...not worth the deal falling through, especially if the liklihood of obtaining retrospective consent is high anyway.

Good luck!

If I were advising

[Graye]

Thank you all so much for your advice on this. Thanks GA, it seems planning permission and listed building consent are completely different, although there are times when you might need both, depending on what you are doing. It seems we "only" need listed building consent here.

I absolutely agree with Bonnie, what is their solicitor thinking of! I've had a sleepness night over this and OH didn't fall into bed until 6am (he's a definite cup half-empty type) but firstly I've had a quick walk around the immediate neighbourhood and established that there are quite a few sets of ugly white UPVC windows in similar cottages one in our next door but one neighbour's house which is currently on the market.

Then I spoke, in a completely anonymous way, to the local planning department. Of course their advice is to make a listed building consent application which "may be treated as not worth enforcement" if the windows are hardwood (yes) and in keeping (yes). I really don't want to take the risk and waste a lot of time doing it if there are alternatives and the indemnity sounds promising - thanks for going to that trouble for me Bonnie. I must admit she sounded susprised that I had enquired, asking "Is someone threatening to report you or something?"

I've left all this with our own very stressed solicitor so I'll report back when we have more info.

[Graye]

OK, we now have a plan of attack!

Apparently our solicitor has been researching indemnity policies via their insurance contact, Aviva, and should have a quote tomorrow so they apparently DO exist. He couldn't get a reply from the other sides' solicitor today so tomorrow he will present them with the following:

1) take the indemnity option which we will pay for
2) risk the building consent application route which will either a) approve what we've done with no problem or otherwise b) cost us a fortune and leave them without double-glazing or even without a purchase depending on the time-scale.

If it's 2b we'll have it put right with single glazed softwood sashes (anyone want some really high quality double glazed windows?) and back on the market if it takes any length of time. There are no chains so I suppose we have a bit of leeway anyway.

We are very lucky in that we can go ahead with our purchase anyway, even though it will leave us potless until the sale does go ahead. I shall certainly be drawing very hard on what self-sufficientish bits I've learned over the last couple of years anyway.

Thanks for all the input, I appreciate it and will pass on details of how it turns out later.