Help with my rhubarb wine please

[fluffy]

I made my wine some weeks ago following a recipe I found in an old recipe book as a neighbour gave me a glut of rhubarb. I did what it said, but the rhubarb had to go in 2 pans as I didn't have a bucket at the time and one went funny so I threw it away. It only filled half a demi-john and I got a book by someone else about wine who said it should always be full or else u can get some kind of bacteria (flower yeast or something), it looked like i had that bacteria on the surface and never having made it before I panicked and made it up to a full demi-john with sugar syrup and bit of yeast as suggested.

Sorry this is taking so long... Anyway nothing seemed to happen then, appeared to finish fermenting (Ithought it had anyway 'cause there were no bubbles) so I brought it into a warm room still nothing... Bottled it, now it is fizzing like crazy the tops keep popping off and when I listen I can hear all the bottles fizzing. I had a glass last night (just to check it out) and it tastes really sweet like a licquor but not alcoholic at all!

Help... I'm sorry i'm such a newbie I've got all the proper kit now and am going to do it properly from now on. Just not sure what to do with it, throw it away, put it back in demi-john. leave in bottles etc.

Thanks in advance,

Fluffy
xx

[MKG]

Put it all back in a demijohn - quickly!

Don't worry at all about air gaps until a fermentation is over (really over, that is). There's no air in there - it's mainly carbon dioxide (this is a good thing).

You don't mention any off-tastes apart from sweetness. That's a good sign. It's certainly fermenting now and all of that sugar will be slowly turning to alcohol.

Old recipe books are as useful as udders on a bull when it comes to winemaking. They're packed full of basic errors and fairy stories. However, you live and learn.

When you've done the demijohn thing (do that even before you finish reading this post!!!) why don't you put the recipe up here? That'll give us a bit more information to work on.

Right. Go ... demijohn ... NOW!!!

Mike

[fluffy]

Right I'm on it! I'll post recipe 2moro night thanks so much for your reply Mike, i''m going to go do it now. I'm actually so happy that it was not all a big waste of time.

Thanks a lot!!

Love Fluffy
x

[fluffy]

Hi MKG

Well the wine is back in the demi-john, not quite as much as before ('cause I had a glass) and it still doesn't seem to be bubbling lots, although every bottle I listened to was fizzing and there was sediment in the bottom of the bottles. Anyway here is the recipe, it is from the "Main cookery book" first edition 1929! don't know which edition this is, but it is an old book.

Rhubarb Wine

6lb Rhubarb Rind of 1lemon
5lb Sugar 1 Gallon water
Half oz Isinglass 1oz yeast
1 slice toast

Method - Put the rhubarb and lemon rind in a large “mug” or other clean vessel, cover with the water and leave for a week, stirring well everyday. Then strain off half the liquid into a jam pan, add the sugar and isinglass and warm gently until they are dissolved. Strain and add the rest of the liquid, and, when the whole is just warm, return it to the “mug”. Toast a slice of bread, spread the yeast onto it and leave in the liquid to ferment for some days. Then strain, bottle and keep for at least 6 weeks. The longer it is kept the better is the wine. The yield is about 4 quarts of wine.

As I said I had to put it in 2 pots (I have a proper bucket now ) as there was too much stuff and as one didn't work I only used half the sugar and also used dry yeast out of a sachet (bread yeast) 'cause I couldn't get any fresh yeast. Also I wasn't sure how long "some days" was so I left it for about 5 days then bottled it. Then as I heard it fizzing me and my husband went to a homebrew shop that we found and bought some proper stuff. I put the wine back in a demi-john and left it for a bit, but it only went up half way as I had only made half the recipe. The lady in the shop recommended "first steps in winemaking" by C J J Berry and on reading this I read that you can get a bacteria if it is not full. There was frothy stuff on the top of the wine in the demi john so I topped it up with sugar syrup and water and half a teaspoon of brewers yeast and nutrient.

Well after that nothing seemed to happen no bubbles or plips out of airlock or anything so I left it a few days and then bottled it again. Then the tops started to pop off the bottles and I could hear it fizzing so I postd here and hoped you would reply

Now I am wondering how I know when it is ready to go into the bottles I don't mind how long just so long as I know when the right time is. Should I just leave it a month or something??

Sorry about the long post, but I just wanted to tell you everything I did so you had all the info.

Many thanks

Love Fluffy
x

ps is elderflower wine easy to make 'cause I thought I might give that a go now I have the proper equipment and do you think the book I got is any good, there is a recipe in there, but instead of adding tannin I read that it is ok to add a cup of strong tea.
fluff
x

[MKG]

Rhubarb Wine

6lb Rhubarb Rind of 1lemon
5lb Sugar 1 Gallon water
Half oz Isinglass 1oz yeast
1 slice toast

... is a fine example of what I'm always banging on about with old recipes . People then made wine without really any idea what they were doing. It would normally taste awful, so they loaded it with sugar to disguise that taste. 5 lbs in a gallon has not a cat in Hell's chance of being fermented out, so that recipe would always end up sickly sweet. You've ended up using half that amount - much more realistic - but then added some more in the form of that sugar syrup you topped up with. So I suspect it'll still end up on the sweet side - just not so sickly as to turn your face inside out.

The bread thing is and has always been a fairy story. It may - only may - provide a bit of yeast food, but it's more likely to just give your wine a haze. So that's what the isinglass is for - it's a fining agent. Don't bother with it in future, as it usually isn't necessary. There are better fining agents these days and you don't need any of them until after the fermentation has finished.

Unless you're intending to make a sparkling wine (something I wouldn't try until you have a lot more experience), NEVER bottle any wine until you know it's completely finished and stable. That can take quite some time - certainly a LOT more than 5 days. So leave it in that demijohn until you can see it clearing. Keep it at room temperature to give the yeast a chance to ferment every bit of sugar it's capable of (and, in future, use wine yeast if you can. Bread yeast will produce a wine, but it won't produce quite as much alcohol as wine yeast).

Right - C.J.J. Berry. Most of his recipes are good. Some, probably because of supremely bad editing, are laughable. And he does come out with a few howlers. One of them is the full demijohn rubbish. For a start, demijohns should NEVER be full when you're starting a fermentation off. There is a distinct possibility of foaming and, if you have a full demijohn, there's only one place for the foam to go - all the way through your airlock and then all over the floor/table. For another thing, as soon as the fermentation begins, the yeast is producing carbon dioxide (that's what those bubbles are). The gas, being heavier than air, builds up a layer on top of the liquid, eventually filling the space left in the demijohn and providing a bug-and-bacteria-proof seal. When any foaming has died down, the demijohn can be topped up BUT even then it's never absolutely full. Leave a space of at least three quarters of an inch below the bung because, if you don't, you'll be putting one of the main sources of infection in contact with your wine. It's only if you're storing wine that the demijohn must be full (although still with that little gap) and then it's to prevent oxidation.

That frothy stuff on the top of your wine, by the way, has a 99.9% chance of being yeast - not everything you see developing around wine is bacteria.

Anyway, you've now done the right thing. However, top up your demijohn with tap water to replace that glass you drank (that'll help a little with the excess sweetness. Then just keep a casual eye on it. There's a lot of sugar and you've used bakers' yeast, so the fermentation may be slow and drawn out, but it will get there in the end. Believe me, you'll know when it's ready. The bubbling will have stopped and the wine will become clearer and, when you sample it again, there'll be no fizz on the tongue. Rack it again at that point (into another demijohn) top up as necessary, put the demijohn in the coolest place you can find and then leave it for another month. It's drinkable at this point, by the way - I'm just playing safe. After that month, it should be safe to bottle.

As a general rule, the safest way (and one which will improve your wine more quickly) is always to leave any wine for as long as possible in a demijohn, only bottling when you want to start drinking it.

Mike

EDIT: Elderflower WINE is easy. Elderflower CHAMPAGNE is not easy. And you're right about the cup of strong tea.

[fluffy]

Hi Mike,

Thanks very much for all that, it is foaming at the top now, so I know it is working still. It doubt that it will clear tho 'cause i remember you saying on another thread that don't mash the rhubarb and i did so it prob won't totally clear now. I'm not that bothered this time about it totally clearing as long as it tastes alright.

Do you recommend the Berry elderflower wine then (not champagne for a long tine for me I think) or do you please have an easy peasy beginners recipe that I can use.

Loads of thanks
fluffy
x

[happy place]

hi fluffy
i use mr berrys book for all my rcipes and have found all the ones ive tried have worked but i use them as a guide not a bible i never add to many extras to my wines ie fruit sugar water yeast & nutrient maybe some of the stuff that kills pectin and thats it if he says add concentrate or some other stuff i just ignore that bit they still do the job
i havent brought wine for about 2 years and usually have 3 gallons plus brewing as for elderflower shampoo leave it in the demi john to ferment out fully all a bottle of bubbly is is a wine that hasnt quite finished fermenting and if it finishes in a ordinary bottle one of two things will happen it will blow the cork out and decorate the wall , ceiling and any thing else in range or the bottle will bust and take anything in range out.
my beloved loves elder flower wine and im off to pick some on tuesday (enough to use the 5gall fermenting bin she brought me for the perpose )
i will recomend the coffee wine recipe from the book v cheep to make and v drinkable

[fluffy]

Hi Happyplace and thanks for your reply,

Will you be using Mr Berry's elderflower wine recipe then? This is the one I am thinking of using at the moment, just went up the woods yesterday and the flowers are not quite out yet so I still have a bit of time to decide which recipe to use.

Thanks again MKG and Happyplace

fluffy
x

[happy place]

hi there
i will be using mr berrys recipe with my own slant to it.
but the rule i tend to use when in doubt is 3lb of sugar to a gallon and a teaspoon of yeast to a gallon fruit tends to work out at about 3lb to a gall but a bit more will make for a stronger flavoured/bodied wine a bit less will make it a bit weak in the flavour department but the incahol comes from the sugar and yeast so the strength will stay the same
just always wait for it to finnish fermenting before bottleing even if this takes months and months in fact from what i ve found the longer it takes to stop fermenting the more likely it is to make me fall over

[MKG]

Ah - mashing rhubarb. That's not gospel - it was a method of producing a rhubarb wine quickly. If time isn't too much of a problem, then you can, indeed, bash the rhubarb around to extract every last bit of flavour. Even then, it may clear straight away. On the other hand, it's just as likely to retain a haze for a couple of months. So horses for courses - if you want something quick, no matter what fruit you're using, don't bash and don't squeeze. If you're not bothered, mash and squeeze to your heart's content.

The only real rule with rhubarb is the hot water one - don't get it anywhere near. (Having said that, lots of people use hot water extraction with rhubarb and get good results most of the time. It's the other times which concern me. Cold water extraction removes those other times).

Mike

[SaveSomeGreen]

I have a bit of a man crush or CJJ Berry, good chap all round I say. I have done the hot water method on rhubard without issue but I have left it in a bucket for at least a week and lifted out the bits. 5lb of sugar is a bit mental and toast.... well I dunno what to say about that, never heard of it. I am curious about what happened when you did your hot water version MKG? you clearly know your onions (or rhubarb) as I haven't heard of issues with this method?

[MKG]

Very little from personal experience, SaveSomeGreen, but more from the wisdom of Bryan Acton who, as far as I'm concerned, never put a foot wrong in terms of wine chemistry. Basically ...

1. Oxalic acid can destroy yeast cells. Not always, but sometimes if there's an excess of the acid. The result is globs of dead yeasty stuff floating around in a solution which no longer stands any chance of becoming wine. This is the one I've seen with my own peepers.

2. Oxalic acid is easily tasted - it tastes much more acidic than it actually is in chemical terms - but does bugger all as far as a fermentation is concerned. You sample the juice and, finding it far too acidic to your taste, use an acid neutraliser such as precipitated chalk until the must tastes about right. Unfortunately, this also reduces the malic acid (that's the useful one) present in rhubarb. Adjusting to taste (which is actually what the majority of home winemakers do) therefore actually reduces the acid content below an acceptable level. The yeast doesn't like that, and the fermentation will proceed sluggishly. At the same time, any unwelcome beasties which happen to get in have the chance to multiply to an alarming extent. The result - a foul-smelling and ugly, if somewhat colourful, demijohnful of gunk.

As I said, it certainly won't happen every time. But the risk of it happening at all is enough for me, considering that cold water extraction, or even the use of a juicer, extracts very little oxalic acid, so the possible problems don't exist in the first place.

I agree with you about CJJ Berry. But I've seen several editions of his book, each one having different but numerous errors. As I said, he's cursed with crap editors. If you have a reasonable amount of experience then the errors stick out like sore thumbs. If you're a beginner, how are you to know?

Mike

[SaveSomeGreen]

surely though not disagreeing at all but the oxalic acid is concentrated in the leaves and not in the stalk.... personally i don't worry about taste till it has finished fermenting.

I have never had much of an issue with sluggish fermentation.. excessive ones without doubt!

I do end up with highly alcoholic mind bursting stuff on the odd occasion as a result but back sweetening and adding a little bit of this and that has saved things, palate wise that is...

james :)

[frozenthunderbolt]

I do end up with highly alcoholic mind bursting stuff on the odd occasion as a result but back sweetening and adding a little bit of this and that has saved things, palate wise that is...

james :)

I have to agree with this, even with my lower (14-15%ish) R.W. i find it wacks me between the eyes almost with the first sip. That said it tastes like rather nice dry chapagane (only slightly effervescent though, dont worry)

[MKG]

Hi James - yes, the main source of oxalic acid is the leaves, which is why they're toxic. But that's the MAIN source - it's still there in the stalks, but secondary in amount to malic acid.

Having spent my "apprenticeship" doing things the technical way (right down to titration to determine acidity) I once gave up making wine as I was finding it boring and demanding. A year or so later, I picked it up again, this time determined to drop the ultra-scientific stuff. It was enjoyable again. So that's why I now judge a pre-fermentation must on taste and smell - it's more fun and, I find, just as efficient. And then, talking to other winemakers, I discovered that even the dyed in the wool hydrometer messiahs don't actually use them that often. In fact, most people I talk to appear to use the suck it and see method more often than not. Nothing wrong with that but, if you're going to trust your senses rather than slavishly following a recipe, you need to know when your senses can be fooled. The oxalic acid content of hot-water extracted rhubarb can do that.

I agree with what you and FTB say - except to add that I've also tasted some absolutely over-the-top sweet rhubarb wine when the makers insisted that they'd not overdone the sugar. So, poor fermentation, possibly brought about by the presence of oxalic acid. I use cold water extraction which provides the same degree of flavour and, since beginning to use it, I haven't had a single rhubarb wine problem.

But then, what the hell? If everyone made their wines in precisely the same way, it would be a pretty boring world.

Mike