Organic - a fine line?

[Captain Caveman]

As alluded to on my introductory first post, I'm starting my first veg patch, and would love to be as green as possible for family and planet, but I'm struggling with a few issues

First, I need to clear some grass to make the veg patch. I put down some black plastic for 3-4 months and it's killed most of the grass, but now some stuff is coming through again and its time to start planting. If I just dig it now I'll get regrowth of weeds and grass in the middle of my crop

What's the best way to clear the next patch for next year. Dig up the turf? Dig and turnover the turf? Cover again but for longer? What else can kill off the growth before planting , and how can you stop perenial weeds?

Next issue - I had soil tested by RHS - a great service. It shows acid, sandy soil with low potassium. I intend to lime it, which seems simple enough but increasing potassium?

I always thought potash was a natural thing, but it appears the bought stuff is actually potassium sulphate (and also lowers pH) Potash is generally fairly harmless to the environment but it still is not from a natural source. Wood ash will add potassium and increase pH - good for me, but I'll need a lot. What's the score on potash and other potassium sources? Do "organic" growers use potash?

Next - nitrogen, seems important for heavy feeders like brocolli but I definitely don't want NPK fertilisers so "blood meal" looks the best "natural" product. However it's made from animal blood and again doesn't feel that natural and was banned in US after CJD and mad cow. Of course compost will add nitrogen but mines not ready yet so where do you get good Nitrogen sources

Sorry for so many issues but I think their interesting and important and would value your ideas

Cavey

[red]

i think with 'organic' or chemical free gardening.. that line is a personal choice..

for example the soil assn - who own the word 'organic' do allow the use of bordeaux mixture to halt the progress of blight. but the copper does build up in the soil and is bad for livestock (particularly sheep) bees etc.
if you are growing for yourself. then you make your own rules up.

re clearing the grass.. best method is double digging. hard work but the goodness in the grass goes back into the ground. if you are in a hurry then lift the turf and compost it and dig the ground underneath

I dont use potash or feed.. but do make compost - and i put my woodash onto the compost heap. We also went and collected a mountain of rotted horse poo, which went in the potato trenches.
If you take food off the land, you have to replace that goodness and animal poo is one of the better ways imo - however not all plants can take it.. which is where crop rotation plays a part.

we moved here last year and like you had no compost heap ready to go. however the ground was new, grass previously and so not empty of goodies, and we grew plenty of veg.. courgettes, peas beans, etc etc without adding anything.

[hamster]

Re the first issue, I recently did a gardening course where the lady who was running it soaked old brown paper sacks (or any large paper sheets I suppose) in water, cut holes in them to plant the plants in and then mulched over the top of it around the plant. Apparently this stops weeds growing and will also rot down (unlike black plastic). She also said you could use grass cuttings or other organic matter, but I must point out that I haven't actually tried this myself!

Can't help with potash or nitrogen, though, sorry. I'm just making comfrey tea and nettle tea and hoping.

[Martin]

http://www.nvsuk.org.uk/growing_show_ve ... lisers.php
http://www.pda.org.uk/leaflets/23/no23-page1.htm [/url]

[Stonehead]

..........

[ina]

for example the soil assn - who own the word 'organic' do allow the use of bordeaux mixture to halt the progress of blight.

Only in exceptional circumstances, and the use is being phased out. And they don't own the word organic - there are other certifying bodies in the UK (and worldwide) - and what they do certify is "certified organic", not just organic!

[MINESAPINT]

You certainly have a comprehensive reply from Stonehead. Might take a bit of digesting. My experience of covering soil to kill weeds is that it depends what the weeds are you are trying to kill. Weeds like docks, dandelion, wick grass, nettles, creeping thistle & mares tail are very persistent and I have had no luck controlling these by smothering them although I have only had them covered for about 2 years with several layers of carpets. With sacking & mulches I am sure persistent weeds will just grow through. My opinion is that chemicals are a waste of time. I live on a farm and the farmer sprays patches of nettles, docks etc with every concoction known to man. Sure they wither away in the short term but are soon back in exactly the same places. Digging them out is successful except for very deep rooted weeds such as creeping thistle but you do have to appreciate the task is ongoing.

With regard to double digging. My topsoil is less than 1 spade deep so I imagine double digging would be unwise in my case. I would just be digging subsoil & clay up to mix with the topsoil and the creeping thistle roots are deeper than 2 spade depths.

With regard to such things as potato blight I am absolutely convinced the way to go is to sniff out some blight resistant varieties to grow like the Sarpo varieties or Orla or Lady Balfour. I found a blight league table on the net. Best crop of spuds I ever grew was using seaweed straight off the beach as a fertiliser and I am trying again this year.

The most testing issue for me is pests particularly slugs which I am constantly on the lookout for with a pair of scissors. I planted some sprout plants out a couple of weeks ago and only have about 50% of them left at this stage.

No doubt gardening, particularly organically is a major challenge. I have recently concluded the best plan as far as I am concerned is grow what grows happily in my location. No point struggling to grow stuff that does not want to grow.

MINESAPINT

[Captain Caveman]

Cheers for all your comments, particularly Stonehead who I hope uses more than 2 fingers to type. Thanks for the links too Martin, funny how the potash association push potassium as a natural nutrient suitable for organic growers, even if some of the products are created by using sulphuric acid!

Overall I have a good sandy loam with moderate organic matter and nutrients just low K, so I dont need to resort to major chemical fertilisers

So who uses quaint things like potash, epsom salts and bone/blood? The old fashioned names make them sound more wholesome than Potassium and Magnesium sulphate, but they actually sound fairly harmless to the environment. Its interesting that organic producers are allowed to use potash and other products if testing proves that the soil is deficient

Do any vegetarians have issue with using blood/fish or bone? I did notice today that there are several Organic fertilisers on the market now, but again they tend to use similair components

[john4703]

Do any vegetarians have issue with using blood/fish or bone? I did notice today that there are several Organic fertilisers on the market now, but again they tend to use similair components

I am vegan and garden organically. I do not use any animal products on my garden but rely on other natural fertilizers. I know of several other vegetarians and vegans who do not use animal products in their gardens. The reasons vary but are usually to do with how the animal product is produced, factory faming etc is unpopular with vegetarians and vegans.

[marshlander]

Hello john4703

I'm a veggie and interested in your reply. Do you draw the line at horse manure from stables too? Do you use human urine/'waste'?

I use manure from my friends pet sheep and goats and my own chickens. It all goes into the heap with everything alse for at least a year.

[red]

for example the soil assn - who own the word 'organic' do allow the use of bordeaux mixture to halt the progress of blight.

Only in exceptional circumstances, and the use is being phased out. And they don't own the word organic - there are other certifying bodies in the UK (and worldwide) - and what they do certify is "certified organic", not just organic!

hmm from their website

The Soil Association does allow the use of copper fungicides (up to 6kg per hectare a year) when a significant blight risk is demonstrated. Bordeaux Mixtures are only allowed if they contain just limestone rather than slaked or hydrated lime.

just as if you can demostrate a problem with fluke on your land you can use a flukicide with your sheep.. - I can see what they are saying.. use the stuff only when it is needed.. not just anyway.. but I wonder how many people really appreciate this when they buy 'organic' - that they still are likely to be consuming the chemicals.. or the use of chemicals went into the production of the food - just that it was *allowed*

as for the name... well.. seems you cannot label food 'organic' unless you have been certified by.. well the soil assn. if you say there are other bodies that can give you the ok.. then I am sure you are right..
but we can have the situation were I might use less chemicals than another grower who is certified organic.. and I am not allowed to use the term (to sell food), as not cert. organic...

[john4703]

Hello john4703

I'm a veggie and interested in your reply. Do you draw the line at horse manure from stables too? Do you use human urine/'waste'?

I use manure from my friends pet sheep and goats and my own chickens. It all goes into the heap with everything alse for at least a year.

I do not use any animal products and have not used human waste although I have been considering human urine on my compost heap as I've read that it is good. I do not have friends who keep animals so do not have access to things that you use.

[marshlander]

One of our B&B guests is an inspector for the Organic Food Federation www.orgfoodfed.com - he was in the area visiting organic farms.

Anyway, he was concerned that soil assn. is becoming more and more political - with issues such as air miles and how well workers are treated being taken into acocunt before a certificate is granted.

Do you just sell at the farm gate, ina, in which case you could explain your organic qualifications to your customers in a notice eg 'grown without the use of pesticides and artificial fertilisers' or whatever is appropriate for you.

[ina]

as for the name... well.. seems you cannot label food 'organic' unless you have been certified by.. well the soil assn.

There are many, many other certifying bodies around - I think about 10 in the UK alone - so it does not have to be certified by the Soil Asociation! I know they would like it to be that way - well, sometimes it seems so - but it isn't just them. Look at the packaging next time you see an "organic" product: it has a certification number on it, something like UK5, UK7 or so. That tells you which organisation it is. (No, sorry, I don't know which one is which, either... But there is a list somewhere!)

but we can have the situation were I might use less chemicals than another grower who is certified organic.. and I am not allowed to use the term (to sell food), as not cert. organic...

We've had that discussion before on this forum; if it wasn't for the folk who trying to make a quick buck by selling second class conventional veg as organic for a premium, we wouldn't need the certification process. Sad, but true, that many people can't be trusted not to take advantage.

[Stonehead]

You certainly have a comprehensive reply from Stonehead. Might take a bit of digesting.

Sorry, but I felt it unwise to leave large chunks out. I prefer to look at it holistically and give reasons, rather than just say "do this", "don't do that". I probably should have put it on my blog and sent interested people there—but then people get sniffy about my "attempting to up my visitors". Sigh.